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ThirdK

Pick your Poison: Warfare of Vengeance


16,015 posts in this topic

Of course, if he really wanted to figure out your playstyle, all he'd have to do is make a quick google search educate;

Did you respond to the question that Messiah (I think that's what his username is) asked everyone about Well Rounded? Or was your response fairly empty and unimportant? Those are the only two possibilities.

@Fireflinger - Yes. I will consider everything a calculated move because there's no reason not to. There's a reason for anything, even simply pissing someone off.

Edited by Ryker

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Touche. I agree.

I'll give my opinions after I get back from school.

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Oh, Ash's question. I went to bed before he made that post.

I voted for Large in Numbers, because it seemed like the least dangerous out of all the choices; after all, what good is having a bunch of members in your team if they're all relatively powerless and easy to take out? But then, someone pointed out that they'll probably have alignment conversion powers, which is a pretty big pain. I'm still voting for it, but that's because I'm the only one legitimately voting for it, meaning it definitely won't win.

I didn't vote Well-Rounded simply because I voted Large in Numbers. But yeah, I'm not completely convinced it's the best choice. Think of it like this: back before, say, 500 A.D. or so, people basically specialized in certain areas and didn't branch out to other areas. But then, the Muslim world stated branching out, taking knowledge from one field and applying them to others. They basically came up with the basis of cryptanalysis, because they were able to incorporate information from fields that people conventionally wouldn't relate with each other, like language and math. The Muslim world also pretty much took over the world during that time period. I think that having a well-rounded scum team is a lot like giving the world over to them. Now if they're specialized in one specific area, they'll have some kind of flaw somewhere, like say, an aggressive scum team probably would be killing aggressively, but not necessarily killing the roles that are the greatest threat to them. A hard-to-kill or hard-to-find scum team won't go down quickly, but they don't necessarily have the information or power to bring us down before they go down. If I had to say which choice I think is the best, though...I'd be loss,. They all have obvious strengths and flaws, but which can this town exploit best? I guess if you really want to,k you could take me still voting for Large in Numbers as "undecided," since I know it won't win and no longer believe it's the best.

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^I found my first scum.

You don't accomplish anything with that post. You straight up say that you aren't voting for anything because your reason for voting is apparently because it won't go through. Which one do YOU think will be the best set-up for town and why. You do have to say. You don't have to be right, you have to be on record with a stance.

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^I found my first scum.

You don't accomplish anything with that post. You straight up say that you aren't voting for anything because your reason for voting is apparently because it won't go through. Which one do YOU think will be the best set-up for town and why. You do have to say. You don't have to be right, you have to be on record with a stance.

I hardly ever make it clear exactly what I'm thinking, though, and I don't vote if I'm certain it won't make a difference, but I said it pretty clearly here. I said a specialized scum is better than a well-rounded scum, but since we don't even know OUR roles, we can't know exactly which specialized scum is best to exploit.

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^I found my first scum.

You don't accomplish anything with that post. You straight up say that you aren't voting for anything because your reason for voting is apparently because it won't go through. Which one do YOU think will be the best set-up for town and why. You do have to say. You don't have to be right, you have to be on record with a stance.

I hardly ever make it clear exactly what I'm thinking, though, and I don't vote if I'm certain it won't make a difference, but I said it pretty clearly here. I said a specialized scum is better than a well-rounded scum, but since we don't even know OUR roles, we can't know exactly which specialized scum is best to exploit.

Okay, self-meta. That does me so much good. Make it clear what you're thinking. Making it vague or not saying it is scummy as fuck.

Yeah, sure. You say that now after I've pointed out that Well Balanced is a FUCKING TERRIBLE IDEA, but now you won't come out and post a clear cut opinion. Post it before everyone else. I don't want a sheeped opinion. I want solid stances. If you have to, post your thoughts about each and rank them in order from best to worst.

I won't tolerate your coasting.

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Knowledgeable Scum

"Don't you just hate it when your opponent is one step ahead of you? EVERY TIME?"

This is more of a knowledgeable scum route, the Scum will have quite the upperhand in what's going on in this chaos storm.

A scum that can easily find our most useful roles and take them out? No thanks. Out of all the specialized scum teams, I like this one the least.

Confusing Scum/Time Churning Scum

"STOP MOVING SO FAST YOU'RE CONFUSING ME"

This is more of a confusing route. Confusion can be quite insane, while they won't have more knowledge, you'll all be stuck with the curse of finding yourselves more confused.

TK's games are already confusing enough. I wonder how much of a pain this scum team would be...

I can't really get a good idea of how much of a pain this will be compared to the others. Confusion make me think of manipulative roles like redirector. Time Churning makes me think of day-shortening roles, like Deadly's role in CYOS mafia that controls the deadline, or maybe a mafia beloved princess/global roleblocker that works during the day.

Long-Lasting Scum

"WHY WON'T YOU DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Have you ever been stuck on a hard boss? This is more for the route of scum that can keep saving their asses... constantly, somehow.

Long-lasting scum sounds like one of the better specialized scum teams. No overwhelming investigative or manipulative advantage. The tought part will be figuring out exactly what will kill them. Will they be bulletproof scum, or will they be like Shadow in VGM III and make themselves a lover with another player without them knowing about it? Will they all have lynch immunity? But yeah, I feel a bit better about this one than most of the others.

Very Aggressive Scum

"Okay, how the hell am I suppose to beat you when you have a knife, a chainsaw, two shot-guns, a grenade launcher, the legendary sword of Excalibur, and a fork"

EVERYTHING. Very killswitchy, all bets are off with this one.

I don't like the sound of "killswitchy." The mafia will be taking out town quickly with this, and I don't know if we can figure them all out before we're all eliminated. I'd rank this as second worst, right behind Knowledgeable mafia.

Well-Rounded Scum

"Well... You seem to be good at everything. Confident, but not overly cocky."

They're... quite good at everything. Mostly just your standard arsenal.

We've been all over the place with you. I agree with you for pretty much everything said about this team.

Easy to Revenge scum

"A new mechanic? Well gee, it's not like we didn't have another freaking 500 that failed in Mafia"

Welp, this one is easy to get to the Revenge point... what little you know.

A new mechanic? It's hard to judge a team when you don't know the mechanic they're based off of, but if I had to guess, this scum team gets more powerful the more members they lose. Probably would be dangerous to have this team last to endgame.

Hard to Find Scum

"I got a cop inno on you, a tracker no visit, a no lie detector result, and tons more and... You're STILL SCUM?! WHAT THE HELL MAN I THOUGHT WE WERE COOL"

Yeah, you know the drill to this one. Generally easy to kill and all... but for sure not easy to find.

Hard-to-find heavily shifts the focus of the game onto Day Phases by making most of our investigative roles moot. I guess you could see that as a good or bad team. I'm not particularly against it, but I think we would have better odds with Long-Lasting Scum

Unexpected Scum

"Who the fuck puts in a Scum Beloved Princess, Tree Stump, FBI Agent, and GUNSMITH?! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT"

UNEXPECTED! Very unexpected roles. Proven Role =/= Proven Alignment? Who knows?

Heck no. This one's pretty bad in my opinion. Just thinking about a scum Gunsmith puts shivers in my spines.

It would probably be heavily day-focused like hard-to-find scum, but that's because it takes Proven Role=/=Proven Alignment and turns it up to 11!

Large in Numbers

"There's so many... but they're... So easy! It's like wack-a-mole."

More "Scum" (Generally anti-town stuff), easier to take down.

I liked it at first, but I didn't even consider conversions. That's likely the method that TK would use, and that's more of a pain to deal with than anything else in my opinion.

Mystery Scum

"Wait... Scum who know what they're doing less than Town? Alright!"

Scum who don't know their full potential, but once they find it, who knows what on earth they can do. I don't think anybody wants to know.

Just no, again. From the sounds of it, scum will absolutely destroy us once they've figured out their powers.

Well, that's my opinion on each and every option. Hopefully that'll be satisfying.

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Nope, you're still scum. Don't you agree, SJShark?

And you, Nessiah (I looked it up), how do you feel about long lasting?

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Here's the problem I have with knowledgeable, they know what our good PRs are when we get them or learn them quickly, and then they'll kill them.

It depends on what Knowledgeable entails. If they're knowledgeable about who has what role, then yeah, they'll do that, otherwise they'll still need to find town PRs to kill them just like they would in a normal game. Also, they might not know exactly what roles town has either if they're getting a similar voting list to what we have. Either way, for Knowledgeable, at least they won't have the PRs to get rid of all our town roles like they would with Aggressive or something. Although rereading the description does make me more hesitant. The first part makes it seem like they'll have something that tells them what our roles are actually doing (which I wouldn't want), but the second part makes it seem like they just know more about the game mechanics, which to me seems like a valid trade-off for probable worse roles.

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When the game itself is something nobody can figure out the scum are going to be that much worse to find with normal scumhunting.

I don't want hard to find because I want to scumhunt. I want hard to find because I'm damn good at it. I don't want to be raped in the night phase by who knows what hellish abilities they could get.

How does their role affect the basic tenants of mafia where if you look scummy, you get lynched and town wins the game? That's all I can guess you meant by "When the game itself is something nobody can figure out the scum."

Jump the gun, homey. I made my post after you made your's and I'm calling you out for discouraging scumhunting. Let's go

Since you're new here, here's basically how games work:

-good town scumhunters get killed between N1-N3 (sometimes even mislynched)

-unless they get an investigation result, the rest of the town runs around cluelessly not doing anything and quicklynching near deadline just to avoid a no lynch and it's basically luck of the draw whether they were right or not

As for the sentence you asked about:

-any time a strange game mechanic pops up like a countdown timer over someone's head people spend approximately 3/4 of the day phase discussing that only to go "OH THAT'S RIGHT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE LYNCHING SOMEONE LET'S JUST BANDWAGON THE FIRST PERSON WE THINK OF"

So based on previous track records, if we know there are strange mechanics in play, I don't trust the town to scumhunt well enough to win aside from lucky shots by the vig/SK. It's not that I want to discourage scumhunting, it's that I have no confidence in NS2's scumhunting abilities when this game is already far from normal.

Also this:

Ryker, this is NS2. We don't find Scum by scumhunting. We wait for investigatives or an anon voice in green text. Alternatively, we have the SK off them for us.

You have much to learn. theydonothing;

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Get used to lynching them then. We're out of the random bullshit stage of this game. There's more than enough content to actually put forth an effort. Do so and move your vote somewhere constructive instead of everywhere where we get nothing out of it.

Only problem is there's always about 1/4 or more of the players lurking any particular game. If we "got used to lynching them", we'd literally spend the entire game lynching them, and obviously that's not a very good strategy. If we're lucky they get replaced and the replacement is active enough, but with a game this size I wouldn't hold out hope that we'll be able to replace every inactive person.

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Fair warning, I multi-post

Fair warning, I have one of the highest word:post ratios in these mafia games. theydonothing;

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@California Wave and CKCheeseboy - What do you think we do about Fireflinger's refusal to, you know, play the game?

Eh, nothing too noticeable. It's comparable to what he usually does on D1, which is vote for Deadly (Iustus) and not do much else until there's more to actually get reads off of.

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When the game itself is something nobody can figure out the scum are going to be that much worse to find with normal scumhunting.

I don't want hard to find because I want to scumhunt. I want hard to find because I'm damn good at it. I don't want to be raped in the night phase by who knows what hellish abilities they could get.

How does their role affect the basic tenants of mafia where if you look scummy, you get lynched and town wins the game? That's all I can guess you meant by "When the game itself is something nobody can figure out the scum."

Jump the gun, homey. I made my post after you made your's and I'm calling you out for discouraging scumhunting. Let's go

Since you're new here, here's basically how games work:

-good town scumhunters get killed between N1-N3 (sometimes even mislynched)

-unless they get an investigation result, the rest of the town runs around cluelessly not doing anything and quicklynching near deadline just to avoid a no lynch and it's basically luck of the draw whether they were right or not

As for the sentence you asked about:

-any time a strange game mechanic pops up like a countdown timer over someone's head people spend approximately 3/4 of the day phase discussing that only to go "OH THAT'S RIGHT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE LYNCHING SOMEONE LET'S JUST BANDWAGON THE FIRST PERSON WE THINK OF"

So based on previous track records, if we know there are strange mechanics in play, I don't trust the town to scumhunt well enough to win aside from lucky shots by the vig/SK. It's not that I want to discourage scumhunting, it's that I have no confidence in NS2's scumhunting abilities when this game is already far from normal.

Shut the hell up. So, you're resigned to a situation in which scum is severely better off than town regardless of the set-up and town/scum players simply because NS2 has lurkers and dumb people. News flash bro, they're everywhere. You aren't special. You know what? Towns still win games.

I claim bullshit. Who are the best three players here and how often are they lynched at all before at least Day 3.

I find it highly unlikely that in a bastard modded game, the scum will be allowed to night kill with impunity. There will be roles the scum can't kill, protective roles, and possibly redirection roles. Scum will be doing their fair share of guessing what the hell happened as well. You are exaggerating and trying to cause a scare with that line.

Don't let them run around without direction. Scum hunt, leave updated lists of who is scum and who is not. Don't take anything to the grave with you. Leave the morons a clue. They aren't going to be powerless if we play correctly. They'll have a clear sense of direction even after the death of our last good scum hunter and any bastard town is going to have teeth regardless of how hard to find the scum are.

Don't let them? I've seen a shitton of bad last minute play. You know how to stop it? DON'T LET MORONS AD SCUM DECIDE THE DAY PHASE!!! Get in there yourself and see that what you need to happen happens.

Also this:

Ryker, this is NS2. We don't find Scum by scumhunting. We wait for investigatives or an anon voice in green text. Alternatively, we have the SK off them for us.

You have much to learn. theydonothing;

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Get used to lynching them then. We're out of the random bullshit stage of this game. There's more than enough content to actually put forth an effort. Do so and move your vote somewhere constructive instead of everywhere where we get nothing out of it.

Only problem is there's always about 1/4 or more of the players lurking any particular game. If we "got used to lynching them", we'd literally spend the entire game lynching them, and obviously that's not a very good strategy. If we're lucky they get replaced and the replacement is active enough, but with a game this size I wouldn't hold out hope that we'll be able to replace every inactive person.

You lynch lurkers because they are anti-town. They provide you with no reads and the scum can hide among them with ease and push mislynches on them with impunity. You lynch them enough and they stop lurking or quit. You ignore them and they think, "Herp derp, I keep living to LyLo, I must be so good." They're morons because the longer you live the less of a threat you are viewed as which means you are bad. How about we just DON'T LET PEOPLE LURK. It's simple, bother them. Poke them, ask them questions, drag stances out of them. If they continue to lurk despite being given an order and an option to not lurk, then they can be lynched. You'd be surprised how many lurkers stop lurking when you actually do something about it.

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My god, Ryker, calm down. Attacking people like that isn't very productive.

As to Ash's question, I picked well-rounded because I felt that they wouldn't have any overpowered roles that could change the game in their favor really quickly or have any information that could give them a big edge in the beginning of the game. I believe them being well-rounded means that they have pretty much all the roles they'll get and there won't be a chance for them to somehow boost their power through some event.

Also, TK, you have me on the Well-rounded vote twice.

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My god, Ryker, calm down. Attacking people like that isn't very productive.

http://z0r.de/63

Does your opinion on Well Rounded stand up still after what you've seen posted since? If not, where would you go and why did your opinion change? If so, do you think I'm scummy for pushing elsewhere?

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So, you're resigned to a situation in which scum is severely better off than town regardless of the set-up and town/scum players simply because NS2 has lurkers and dumb people. News flash bro, they're everywhere. You aren't special. You know what? Towns still win games.

I'm not "resigned" to it, I'm trying to be logical about what I know people play like and compensate for it. If I have reason to believe that at least half the town in this game won't do anything without an investigation guilty, I'm not going to make the mafia Hard to Find, because I'm setting the town up for failure. Could they get lucky and have enough crossfire between mafia/SK/lucky vig shots to give town the win? Sure. But I'm not going to assume it's going to happen, so I'm not going to vote for the option that means we're going to have to rely on that unless everyone plays differently from how they normally do.

Whether Knowledgeable or Well Balanced or whatever is the best choice is a different debate, but I think Hard to Find is the riskiest option, especially not knowing who the mafia is. If Ash (Nessiah), FF, and apparently you are town, would we have a good chance at winning Hard to Find? Probably. But if Ash, FF, and other strong players are mafians that are Hard to Find, town will get destroyed unless the SK takes them out for us first. Since I don't know who the mafia has on their side, I would rather assume the worst and make sure town PRs are as effective as possible to avoid townies running around like a chicken with their head cut off.

Oh, and I forgot other parts of the strategy here:

-whenever someone claims something that even has the slightest potential of making them clear, half the game must immediately claim to them, especially if this happens D1

-all alliances should be as large as possible, because nothing could possibly go wrong if you let everyone in an alliance know everyone else's roles

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So, you're resigned to a situation in which scum is severely better off than town regardless of the set-up and town/scum players simply because NS2 has lurkers and dumb people. News flash bro, they're everywhere. You aren't special. You know what? Towns still win games.

I'm not "resigned" to it, I'm trying to be logical about what I know people play like and compensate for it. If I have reason to believe that at least half the town in this game won't do anything without an investigation guilty, I'm not going to make the mafia Hard to Find, because I'm setting the town up for failure. Could they get lucky and have enough crossfire between mafia/SK/lucky vig shots to give town the win? Sure. But I'm not going to assume it's going to happen, so I'm not going to vote for the option that means we're going to have to rely on that unless everyone plays differently from how they normally do.

Whether Knowledgeable or Well Balanced or whatever is the best choice is a different debate, but I think Hard to Find is the riskiest option, especially not knowing who the mafia is. If Ash (Nessiah), FF, and apparently you are town, would we have a good chance at winning Hard to Find? Probably. But if Ash, FF, and other strong players are mafians that are Hard to Find, town will get destroyed unless the SK takes them out for us first. Since I don't know who the mafia has on their side, I would rather assume the worst and make sure town PRs are as effective as possible to avoid townies running around like a chicken with their head cut off.

Oh, and I forgot other parts of the strategy here:

-whenever someone claims something that even has the slightest potential of making them clear, half the game must immediately claim to them, especially if this happens D1

-all alliances should be as large as possible, because nothing could possibly go wrong if you let everyone in an alliance know everyone else's roles

Half the game....

If literally half the game is worthless, then we lose when they are the only ones left. That leaves 20 people worth playing with and that's more than the entire scum faction.

I want you to go through the player list and legit tell me who's worthless. I obviously am underestimating the number, so let's see you go out on a limb and give me the information to back your shit up.

So, three players. The game hinges on three players' alignments if we choose hard to find not accounting for lucky vig shots and SK/Mafia crossfire. I like those odds. 3/40 people getting town roles is pretty good. 2/40 since I know that I am town. Besides, you and I both know there are more players than that who are legit and I don't even play here. You're again exaggerating to scare people.

You're pushing for Knowledgeable then Well Rounded. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for your two other lines

Rephrase as I don't understand at all what you mean.

If that's an issue, go to lengths right here to make sure that people understand that they aren't protown. I'll support you one hundred percent. You continue mentioning possible problems that show up down the road with no interest in solving them. Think for 30 seconds and a solution should be pretty damn apparent. Utilize it or you're no better than all the retards you're calling out in your post.

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-whenever someone claims something that even has the slightest potential of making them clear, half the game must immediately claim to them, especially if this happens D1

-all alliances should be as large as possible, because nothing could possibly go wrong if you let everyone in an alliance know everyone else's roles

Half the game....If literally half the game is worthless, then we lose when they are the only ones left. That leaves 20 people worth playing with and that's more than the entire scum faction.

So, three players. The game hinges on three players' alignments if we choose hard to find not accounting for lucky vig shots and SK/Mafia crossfire. I like those odds. 3/40 people getting town roles is pretty good. 2/40 since I know that I am town. Besides, you and I both know there are more players than that who are legit and I don't even play here. You're again exaggerating to scare people.

You're pushing for Knowledgeable then Well Rounded. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for your two other lines

Rephrase as I don't understand at all what you mean.

If that's an issue, go to lengths right here to make sure that people understand that they aren't protown. I'll support you one hundred percent. You continue mentioning possible problems that show up down the road with no interest in solving them. Think for 30 seconds and a solution should be pretty damn apparent. Utilize it or you're no better than all the retards you're calling out in your post.

Do you take everything literally? >_> It's not exactly half the game, and those aren't the only two people that are any good. I just picked two of the (arguably) strongest to be brief. And rather than "scare" people, I'd think most of the regulars would understand what I mean and wouldn't be fazed in the slightest. Also, if there's any kind of recruiting role we can't trust the "odds" of getting strong players because they'd just be higher targets for recruiting. I hate recruiting roles and would prefer pretty much anything over Large Numbers for that reason, but we can't assume there won't be a cult or similar even if we don't pick that one.

I wouldn't go as far as "pushing", but those are probably the two I would pick if it were up to me. Knowledgeable seems like giving the mafia the least "practical" advantage (although like I mentioned that's only if it applies to game mechanics and not about the town's actions), and Well Rounded seems to give them no huge advantages or disadvantages, meaning while individual town PRs couldn't catch every scum, collectively they could, although there is that lingering paranoia that it only sounds good to lure us into picking it.

Basically, I think the big difference in our stances is coming from our approach to the situation. You seem to be trying to capitalize on your strengths so you can find the mafia easier, while I'm trying to compensate for (what I perceive as) town in general's weakness. Hard to Find is definitely a high risk/high reward option, and I'm coming from a "play it safe" standpoint, where Well Rounded seems like the lowest risk and Knowledgeable seems like slight risk/decent potential reward. That's part of why I won't say I'm "pushing" for either of them, because high risk/high reward is still a viable strategy, it's just not the strategy I feel most comfortable with (since we seemingly have a choice).

As for my two lines:

-One of the problems that frustrates me as town is how people love to claim as soon as possible. In one game TK so much as hinted he was miller D1 and by the end of the lynch he had a good quarter (rough guess) of the town roles already. He was mafia using a miller fakeclaim, and town promptly lost most of their power roles. And that's not a rare occurrence (although it seems to have been slightly better recently).

-I also disagree with how people run alliances. When I am in one, I try to make sure I don't leak people's role to each other unless they are completely proven and it's necessary (say doc needs to protect the vig/cop or something). The way most people seem to run it is they have one big PM/MSN conversation with everyone knowing everyone's roles. The problem with that is that you only need one mole to leak the entire alliance list, whereas if people don't know each other's roles, the risk of a huge leak is much less likely. I realize that with my method the alliance can be destroyed by killing the central person, but that can be worked around if there's someone who's proven to be trustworthy (like a cop who's found multiple scum or something) by giving only them the alliance information. I've mentioned my stance before in the past, but I seem to be in the vast minority.

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Let's put the alliance thing to pasture right now. Call them on it. Any role claims out of thread will result in being turned in in thread for being role fishing scum. Large alliances will not be tolerated.

I really don't care for the reasoning behind our stances. They're in direct opposition. I do, however, care that people pick my option and not yours.

I still want your player roster with a list of people who will be dead weight. I can use the information regardless.

What do you think about Long Lasting scum?

I completely agree that recruiters are dumb as hell and the Large Numbers set up is terrible as a result.

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Oh my lord it's a wall-of-text war.

...is it too late to /out? T.T

(this is a joke.)

Cmon bro. I know you're better than that. Shit man, after all we've been through, you should know not to be posting shit like this when we're on page fucking eight of 50 PPP. Step it up and don't accept less than your best.

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